Tagboard replies (edit #1)

Edit: Thanks to Jacko, who recorded down the missing posts, I've been able to construct some of the missing posts.

This was previously the "Story so far" post. Like I said, I feel that I need to add some things of my own to some of the points raise, so here it is. I've posted in yellow so that you know what I've written.

If you have anything to add, please use the "comments" function rather than post on the tagboard. Like I said previously as well; I will conclude this matter at the next One Voice Bible Study on 1 April; all are welcome to come.

Clayton: Want to get together a group of "jumpers" during YM to allow a change in the "stoney" state every Sunday morning?

Natalie: A group of jumpers?

Clayton: “Jumpers” as in people who will move the crowd to jump with them. I think that just Nicholas alone won’t do… remember TOFU? haha… something like that…

Rachel: But you can’t just 'get' jumpers, that's so insincere don't you think? I think you should just make sure those who want to be enthusiastic for God have the courage to do so. Me for instance!

Clayton: To Rachel, there're people who want to jump but are scared (I know one) because of how the crowd perceives him. By asking people, if they are enthusiastic they will do so. But if they not then, well, let it be…

Natalie: I kind of agree with Rachel, you can't just 'get' jumpers. It’s like planting people in the crowd to lift up their hands, so others will lift their hands; seems pretty contrived to me.

Clayton: To Natalie, its like asking those who want to jump to jump because usually they that everyone else is so quiet. So, in the end, they also don’t jump. Worship becomes restrained for them feel that it is unnatural. Some people are like, “If I jump, I will be sticking out so it is better not to do so”.

Up to this point, I believe I have answered everything in my previous post.

Daryl: I have nothing against jumping during worship. It expresses one's joy when singing praise to God. But I don't think we should plant people in the crowd. People have different responses to worship. If you feel like you are suppressed by people not jumping, why don't you SIT IN FRONT? That way, there's no one in your view to discourage you.

Yup, standing in one corner and jumping half-heartedly isn't exactly the way God wants you to worship Him.

Rachel: I will see how it is this Sunday, but if I really feel like jumping, I will.

Denver: Let me asked you guys, do you know why you jump in services and worship? (reflect on the question before I put my own words)

Clayton: To Daryl, its not planting people in the crowd, it’s like encouraging those who want to jump to jump. Like usually, people who want to raise their hands in worship don't bcause they scared they stick out.

Natalie: But Clayton, aren't there already people who naturally raise their hands during worship already? I think it’s a natural thing. Almost like an instinct to want to reach out and yearn for more.

Clayton: To Natalie, its only a minority. I realised that during worship, people are too self-conscious. That is what is hindering them. They are very conscious about what others think of them.

Like I said previously, if you are self-conscious, you have a choice, to shrink back in fear. Or step out in faith. This is YOUR choice, not those around you.

Natalie: So, other people jumping and raising hands will make them less self-conscious? Is that your case?

Clayton: To Natalie, its like (I’m not very good with words) other people raising hands/jumping, will make them 'feel' less self-conscious as "others are already doing it". Also, those jumping people are not posers, as in they are already doing what they are doing naturally. Compare with the situation where they are people jumping and stuff to one which is filled with "stoners", which one is more disturbing during worship?

If there are people disturbing you during worship; then I think you yourself are not really worshippping God whole heartedly.

Kangwei: There is no one way to worship God. I’m sure what we want is for them to be genuine and comfortable. Don’t jump for the sake of making it alive which is superficial. Let’s say during worship, I’m stoning or just simply singing along. But I’m actually genuinely praising and thanking Him constantly on the inside. How?

Natalie: I agree with Kangwei. You can’t tell if the person is worshipping or not. Only that person knows. For all you know, the ‘stoner’ down there is more 'alive' than the jumpers.

Let me add, there are times when you just don't feel like singing. I've felt like that a lot in the last 5 months; and if you look at me during worship sometimes, you won't even see me moving my lips. So I guess I'm one of your stoners right?

There are times when people are going through massive hurt and pain in their lives and to be honest they just don't even want to sing. Does this mean they are not worshippping God? I think I will let God be the judge of that.

Clayton: Response to Kangwei, It’s easier to switch off that way. Some may be genuine, but others just switch off.

This statement sounds quite sweeping and judgemental to me.

Clayton: To Natalie, you will never know because it’s like ... no one can tell? By the way, I will be at the back tomorrow (got camera duty). Will jump, unless the song is like…

On the other hand, this statement seems to contradict your "some may be genuine, but others just switch of" statement. Since "no one can tell", then how can you tell if others have really switched of?

Sam Phua: I think different people worship in different ways. It doesn't matter how it’s done whether it’s just standing or jumping, but more importantly that they worship with their hearts, rather than to just follow the crowd.Clayton, seriously, if you're just jumping because the song suits, don't bother.

Kangwei: Aiyo… Clayton, you will jump unless the song is like? What? So you jump only when the song suits your mood?! Ultimately, switching off or not, can tell or cannot tell. You have to answer to HIM. It is your very own personal relationship with God.

This is precisely what I mean by worshipping the songs itself. You only jump when the songs is "suitable" for jumping. (more below)

Isaac: Don't worry. Tomorrow sure can jump. Can do almost anything you want really. As long as it's worshiping God.

Yup, any song also can jump. In fact; if you want to do anything else (and of course you truly feel led by God to do) also can.

Daryl: Let us edify one another and not let this war of attrition lead to dissention. Clayton and everyone else have good reasons for their views. I agree with Kangwei, it’s your personal relationship with God. If u really want to jump, but don't because shy… then that’s wrong. Vice Versa

*insert posts on Nike shoes that fall apart*

Sheldon: Ok seriously, jumping is an issue which people shouldn’t be really concerned about. Leave it be. If everybody wants to jump, it'll happen.

Felicia: yup, definitely its one's own wishes, and one's own way of worshipping

Georgiana: Clayton, I seriously suggest that you consider carefully before bringing up topics that would only cause you to appear very stupid.

Clayton: To Kangwei, you do not jump if they are playing hymn-like right or something 'reflective', because most probably I will be thrown out for "causing trouble"!!

And may I know who is going to throw you out? Why cannot jump if singing hymns? If you feel led to, if you really feel joyful in the Lord, the only person stopping you is yourself.

Bertrand: To Natalie, if anything, this debate has challenged the people who talked to stick to their words today. Create your own personal atmosphere of worship n invite God in. when that happens, the people who DONT EVEN know God will feel His power, much less the ones that already know and love Him.

Clayton: to Bertrand, its true that all may know His power, but the main crux is whether we will be able to pass it on and share this love. Do you realise that it’s those "new ones" are more "for it" than those "older ones". Complacency will tend to set in. As in, how many actually bother to do their QT on a regular basis? (the “ones” refers to “Christians”)

Firstly, your statement sounds quite judgemental again. Next, do you do your QT on a regular basis? Like I said when I spoke last year, your times of corporate worship should be an overflow of your times of personal worship. If your times of personal worship is not even regular; and you come on Sunday and jump like a kangaroo, then I think you are no different from a Pharisee. Looks good on the outside, but nothing on the inside. And to me, it tells me that you live your faith only on Sunday. What happened to the other days?

Next, since you mentioned something about evangelism. You are completely correct; we need to pass on our convictions. But guess what, if you only practice your faith on Sunday and in the confines of PMC, but behave no better on any other day; like encouraging everyone around you to cross-dress (see Clayton's blog for the context); I can gurantee you if you bring your friend to church and he sees you jumping up and down, the first thing he will say is "hypocrite". I will talk about this in a later post.

Kangwei: As for today's worship, I think it was great cause people around me sang their hearts out even though there were technical errors. To jump or not, it’s up to you to decide. Whatever floats your boat. Attitude varies from individuals. Nothing to do with the musicians but you alone. You can bluff your way through but again, its your personal relationship with GOD, you answer to HIM only.

Clayton: To Kangwei, I believe that it does take more than 1 person to set an example, just like it takes more than just Nicholas jumping to encourage others who are shy to jump.

Jesus was ONE person who impacted millions of people. So don't underestimate what ONE single person can do.

Elaine: To begin, I do my QT daily. So do many others in YM. And, if one feels called to fall on their knees during singing, are you going to encourage them to jump? No! Similarly, how do you know whether the people around felt called to just stand and clap their hands to worship God rather than to jump? If people truly feel called to jump, then there would not be any boundaries stopping them from worshipping God. After all, it’s their personal form of worship to God. And self-conscious = “Aware of oneself as an individual or of one's own being, actions, or thoughts.” Quoted from www.dictionary.com. In other words, if you are shy of jumping because of the people around you, you are not focusing on God, but yourself.

*insert some missing posts*

Jacko: I agree with what Sam and Shel said; if one wants to jump, he or she must be willing. If you encourage one to jump; he or she might do it unwillingly.

Clayton: To Elaine, the jumping issue, it's usually the case that people feel discouraged to jump when all others aren't doing so. Isn't this self-consciousness? Try telling a youth to jump during YM and during camp, the response is very very different even though all other factors are kept constant, yet the response is different.

Good point! Why? Riding the Sine Curve right? (read my August 2005 archives). This was precisely what Kevin spoke about when he preached and related to what Daryl talked about when he spoke to the YM about worship.

Clayton: To Sheldon, for some, stoning may be their way of worship, for others it is just 'switching off', see?

You said, "easier to switch off that way. Some may be genuine, but others just switch off...you will never know because it’s like ... no one can tell"

And on your own tagboard you said, "...it can be very disturbing when everyone is “switching off"..."

So now, SUPPOSE everyone in the YM is using "stoning" as a way to worship God. But since (in your own words) you said you cannot tell the difference, you think that everyone has switched off. Can I say that you can be disturbed by those who use "stoning" as a way of worship? So there is a possibility that you can be disturbed by those who are truly worship God? Now that is quite a disturbing thing.

(Side note: since the topic of writting argumentative essays was brought up, please avoid doing such things when you write such essays. You have just constructed an argument that can go in two ways, either you concede that it is inconsistent, or you bite the bullet and accept all your premises and concede a ridiculous conclusion.)

Sam Phua: To Clayton, yes, that's true, but then in that case people are really just focusing on their self-consciousness than on God.

Clayton: To Sam Phua, "encouraging" is very different from "forcing". Encouraging serves only as a boost, the final decision whether to jump or not is still in their hands. Also, you do not force people to jump right? The jumping is for those who want to jump but are focusing on "self-consciousness" to let go and "worship".

Clayton: To Jacko, if people are not forced, why would they do it unwillingly?

Jacko: To Clayton, but people shouldn't even feel discourage to jump. Why must people "jump first then we jump"? No sense right? You see Clayton, if you encourage others by jumping yourself, to you it may seem to be encouraging, but too others its like forcing. Example, you are the quiet type. Then besides you, there is me and elaine, the hyper ones, then if Elaine and I jump. You will feel that there's a pressure to jump. So you will tend to jump, isn't that unwillingness?

Sam Phua: I agree with Jacko's last tag. I still stand on my argument that if the youths want to jump, they will jump. The youths just shouldn't be inclined to jump if they don't want to. I know of one person who was around during TOFU last year, while the other youths were jumping, he was just standing there. To be honest, even if I see the whole congregation jumping, I wouldn't be inclined to do so, because it is not the way i want to worship God that day.

Clayton: To Jacko, since you said it, haven't you realised that the common attitude among youth is "he/she do then i do?".

Sam Phua: To Clayton, their attitude may be that, but there will come a time when they will outgrow that attitude. No doubt it's not good to have that kind of attitude, but then again, "you can bring the horse to the water, but you can't force it to drink."

Clayton: To Sam Phua and Jacko, Sam's example just reinstated my point. While you may be encouraging everyone to jump, others may not feel the pressure to jump? See my point when I sais, the final choice is still in your hands? If there was "pressure", won't that youth be jumping already?

Sam Phua: To Clayton, encourage, yes. but not by putting "jumpers" in the congregation and expecting the youths to follow. That would be as good as pressurizing!

Jacko: To Clayton, you see, if that's the common attitude, then we SHOULD change it. You see, if "she do then I do = you don't do I don't do". This shows the insincerity of oneself.

Sam Phua: Agreed. I think we all have a part to play in changing the youths' attitude. But things like this do take time.

VERY GOOD! In that case, go for church camp okay? Since you don't need to follow other youths in order to be the first one to sign up!

Jacko: I agree with Sam. And clay, "if's there pressure, won't that youth be jumping already?" it's just so worng! Thats is = to sort of forcing already.

Clayton: to Sam Phua, if there are few jumping, then "he do, then i do" will seem normal. See? Things like this do take time, but you're not going to see some young adults jumping in the 11am service isn't it? Won't that be too late?

Sorry ah... but you said above that this attitude is bad... now you are implying that it should be the norm? Make up your mind!

Clayton: To Jacko, that isn't "forcing". Because (using sam's example), if that's forcing, then that lone youth would be jumping already!

Jacko: You some sort meant that.. it doesnt seem normal to me.. (“there are few jumping, then” = “he do, then I do” will become the norm) --> this either doesn’t make sense to me or it doesn’t seems normal

Clayton: To Jacko, as in change the "he do then I do" attitude to "since he is doing, I should be also doing" also, if you think that its normal , then jump with the rest of those jumping. If you do not find it normal, then hold your feet.

hehehe... this kind of attitude is also called, "monkey see, monkey do". We are Pentecost Methodist Church Youth Ministry, not the Singapore Zoological Garden's Primate Kingdom.

And the following is from Clayton’s tagboard.

Natalie: So why is there a need to jump?

Elaine: If people want to jump they will. There is no NEED to jump.

Jacq: Sometimes I think you don’t have a brain. Whether people jump or not is their problem. Cannot say that our YM is too conservative!

By the way, our YM is quite unconservative for a Methodist church. But that's not the point. I can assure you, if a small but vocal minority become "ultra-unconservative" we will lose more youth than gain.

One of these days, I will share on the state of the YM on an average Sunday about 6 years ago. I will try this with photographic evidence. Then you will know that we've indeed come along way.

Clayton: To Natalie, the need to jump, it’s because some people will “switch off" in the course of the worship session. Ask Yuehao what happened on the 2nd day of WAM camp worship.

Natalie: But will other people jumping around make them 'switch back on' again?

Clayton: To Natalie, it is less harder for them to 'switch off' or start talking amongst themselves. (Editor’s note: I did not edit this post, because you are actually saying that it is easier for them to switch off if they jump… read it carefully)

Clayton: To Natalie (cond’t), it can be very disturbing when everyone is “switching off”. Ask YueHao, or others who went for the 2nd day of WAM.

Natalie: Personally I feel if you switch off, you switch off. Other people jumping wouldn’t have any effect nevertheless. I mean, if I were stoning away, and I see people jumping, I wouldn’t feel inclined to jump. And I’m curious now, are you targeting those who are self-conscious, or those who switch off and get stoned?

Clayton: To Natalie, both parties? As in, if you switch off, and some others around all switch off, it makes the situation worse isn’t it?

Natalie: My point is, if you're alive, you're alive. If you're dead, you're dead. Even if I’m dead, and I see people jump, I still wont be inclined to jump; and vice versa. So, do you want to plant jumpers, or encourage them to jump? You seem very confused in your own case.

Clayton: To Natalie, it serves as a form of encouragement; not planting jumpers, but encouraging people to jump. (people like Nicholas, they are always doing that.)

Natalie: You said PLANTING jumpers in your original post. Possibly that’s why everyone is on your case. Encouraging and planting are two very different things. I’m all for encouraging, but planting is a different thing.

Felicia: I think its very insincere if people are jumping because of encouragers. And other people might actually feel better to worship silently. It still is up to one's own view to decide how they are going to worship. Jumping might make others feel closer to God, but it all comes down to the individual.

*insert posts on me telling nat that clayton didn't use the word "plant" etc etc*

Natalie: But I still am quite apprehensive about 'getting jumpers'.

Clayton: To Felicia, I believe it will take more than encouragers to make them jump. Having jumping people is to allow those who want to jump but scared to jump jump. See my point?

I would like to add one more last thing. It is very easy to worship God; to jump, to sing at the top of our voices when we are in a good mood. Or when we are riding on some spiritual high. It is during these good times that our faith becomes slack and we begin to lose our dependence on God. Do you think He really wants that?

On the other hand; when we are able to praise God and sing His praise, lift our hands and yes... even jump up and down like kangaroos during the BAD times. When we can truly truly worship God in the midst of sorrow and pain; yeah, then I think you have a firm relationship with God.

Let me give you an example, I give you a few identical looking teabags. The only thing different is the quality of the tea leaves they contain. How to tell which one has good leaves? Pour HOT water into them and drink right?

In the same way; our lives, which we are supposed to offer to God as living sacrifices (this is our act of worship). How can a person tell if we have a strong foundation with God? It's how we respond during the bad times that count.